HERMETIC ORDER OF ARCANA INTERVIEW:
INSTALLMENT #1
ANGEL OF LIGHT/FORMER SWAN
MICHAEL GIRA
CONDUCTED BY SWANS/ANGELS OF LIGHT/ MICHAEL GIRA FAN
RW HESSLER

[I was a fan of New York's SWANS since the early days, about a year after
their inception back in 1981; I grew up with Michael Gira's singing and
songwriting early on in my musical appreciation development. While those
tastes have broadened significantly (at least I like to think so) since I
was sixteen years old and listening to SWANS' seminal recording, FILTH,
Michael Gira's work has continued to satisfy and challenge my cravings in
music like no other artist that I have taken the time to acquaint myself
intimately with. I was frightened by the visceral attack of the output from
the early days--I was frightened by the band. They were large,
hardened-looking, men who looked as if they had spent extended time in
prison, or a homeless shelter; their equipment looked only a small step away
from completely falling apart altogether, and yet the savage brutality that
they were able to conjure both live and on LP is still the stuff of legends
in American Underground Music History. The sheer volume and intensity of
SWANS, featuring the roaring, tortured rants against the weakness and
depravity of the human condition by frontman Michael Gira, led an entire
POST-PUNK and NO-WAVE movement with other New York groups (such as their
rehearsal space partners, SONIC YOUTH) that would come to be called NOISE.
Gira recreated SWANS many times throughout their career tenure (offering
significant contributions to what we call INDUSTRIAL and HARDCORE today)
that lasted until 1997, with an extended cast of musical characters
revolving around a core of Michael Gira and his lover, Jarboe, who joined
SWANS around 1984, not long after hearing FILTH herself. Their sound
changed quite radically around the time of 1987's CHILDREN OF GOD, an album
Gira has called his attempt to Òget inside of something bigger than myself,
without the distancing of ironyÓ and was inspired to some degree by the work
of now-scandalized televangelist Jimmy Swaggart. SWANS moved into a new
phase with this recording, the frontal assault of angry noise replaced by a
greater emphasis on melody and Gira's unique take on formal song structure.
The result was even more compelling, more intense than their previous
recordings, more subconsciously arresting because of the deeply personal
subject matter infused with an element of universal yearning, failure, and
spiritual perversity--the sensation of being taken to an extremely
uncomfortable, yet alarmingly familiar place within yourself. The new songs
were no less pummeling than the previous SWANS compositions, but they also
mirrored a sensitivity, a palpable tenderness and fragility that Gira's
former compositions seldom betrayed. The culmination of this new approach
was even more apparent in SWANS' brief flirtation with a major record label
on Bill Laswell's production of THE BURNING WORLD (1989), a record that
established SWANS' reputation with the darker cravings of their very loyal
following, a period I can only look at with romantic nostalgia and even
occasional longing. At this point, SWANS were one of the prominent groups
that were the true soundtrack of my generation. The little betrayals, the
tangible darkness in our souls, the disillusionment that soon follows the
realities of post-university day-to-day eking it out--the compositions of
Michael Gira spoke volumes to an entire subculture, and at this point began
the most prolific phase of his career with SWANS.
Gira's approach at this point became even more musical, a completely pure
wall of melodic sound on top of crushing rhythms, yet more subconsciously
invasive and cathartic than before. Gira had perfected his craft as sound
sculptor and was one of the most compelling live vocalists on the
independent music circuit. Despite distribution problems and changes
throughout this period, Gira also managed to breathe life into his own
label, YOUNG GOD RECORDS.
Gira finally pulled the plug on SWANS in 1997, a choice that continues to
haunt many fans today, despite the success and high quality of his
post-SWANS work with his current project, ANGELS OF LIGHT. The fact of the
matter is that Michael Gira has moved on and is not looking back, and his
work has frankly never been stronger or more focused. And yet it's easy to
empathize with, as SWANS held such an important role in Independent
Underground Music's history throughout their entire career spanning almost
two decades. Many people have been influenced and deeply affected by Gira's
work, and are inspired by his resilience to obscurity as well as his
commitment to press on at his own pace and by his own set of standards.
Like many, I myself find Gira's work to be completely fascinating; he
exposes a primal temptation in the cravings of his listeners as well as a
realization of our failings, despite all attempts to relate to a pure
impulse. He is no stranger to despair, and yet his work is testimony to his
active refusal to wholly give into its deathly embrace. His work represents
an honest journey through the experience of a pure arcana; and despite his
hesitation or utter refusal to intellectualize the process of his own gifts
as a songwriter, this facade of his nature does not diminish in any way the
authenticity or strength of his formidable prowess as a vital performer and
recording artist.
As a side note, while I have had the privilege to interview Michael Gira on
several occasions, including my own official artist bio posted on his web
site at younggodrecords.com, the process itself of interviewing him is never
really an easy one. Gira is clearly a very private person by nature; and
while he is very candid in this particular interview considering it was
connected over the web, it is also very clear that the man is a doer, not a
talker, and the task of explaining the muse that moves his music is one he
has difficulty relating to. We appreciate Michael's support of the HERMETIC
ORDER OF ARCANA through this interview--thank you again, Michael. Thank you
for being my favorite musician for so long--you've taken me many places in
my mind with your music, places I might not have ventured had you not first
pointed the way...--RWH]

HERMETIC ORDER OF ARCANA: We're delighted that you've consented to answer
some questions for our first installment of interviews within the HERMETIC
ORDER OF ARCANA website. Following are some questions and points of
departure for you to wax on what's new for you in 2006 as well as some of
your recollections of past endeavors. I think it's REALLY important for
people to know your take on the vast body of work you've brought to the
table with your record label YOUNG GOD RECORDS, as it is an extremely
important link in the history of what we've come to call the musical genres
of NOISE, INDUSTRIAL, ALTERNATIVE, EXPERIMENTAL, and most recently, the
NEO-FOLK REVIVAL. It would be difficult to pigeonhole the body of your work
into any of the aforementioned categories, and yet you've contributed
effectively within a loose interpretation to all of the above. We're
honored to be conducting this website interview with you, Michael; can you
give us an encapsulation of your role in the past year at YOUNG GOD RECORDS
as well as a forecast of what's going on with you right now in the new year?

MICHAEL GIRA: Well, I just struggle to keep up with things. Basically, I'm
a shipping clerk and a sort of low level facilitator.

HOA: You're a musician who has managed to stay independent (and alive!) for
over 25 years on the strength of your ability as a songwriter; do you have
any different feelings about the craft of songwriting now from when you
first began?

MG: Ultimately, I don't care about the "craft' of songwriting. If something
works, it's fine. I have no idea what I'm doing. It's the same as when I
started 25 years ago.

HOA: Avoidance of repeating yourself has been something you and your work
have constantly emphasized--why has this always been important to your
vision and your career? Is it still as important to you now?

MG: I'd be embarrassed to repeat myself too much. Look at it like this: if
someone's having a conversation with you, and they keep saying the same
thing over and over, don't you find it rude, and boring? It's the same with
the music one releases over the years. It's a conversation with the people
that are gracious enough to listen to what you have to say. Why insult them
by saying the same thing in every missive?

HOA: What was the catalyst that led you to personally believe that your
path would be that of a musician and songwriter instead of a wage slave? At
what point did you just say no to the "day job thing" and turn your back on
it forever? Has this at any point in your career been a decision that
you've questioned or regretted?

MG: The catalyst was a total fear of poverty and a hatred of abjection,
based on a lifetime of same. I have no skills outside of what I'm doing now,
so there's really no choice involved.

HOA: Have you ever received any sort of response from your family regarding
your chosen profession and has that stayed relatively consistent over the
tenure of your career?

MG: My immediate family is all dead, except for my younger brother. He has
helped me throughout my career, first as a visual artist, then as a
musician.

HOA: Looking back at the first phase of your career with SWANS,
approximately
1981-'84, your songwriting seemed to come straight from the gut, a
completely visceral reaction of anger teamed with what might be perceived as
nihilistic despair--what brought this music out of you? How were you able
to maintain the level of intensity put into it for four long years?

MG: It just was what I wanted to do. I decided not to think about anything
else
except what my imagination dictated should happen. It's really simple.

HOA: You are credited almost exclusively as songwriter during the first
phase of SWANS, which had what seems to be almost a revolving door of
collaborators (with a relatively consistent core); can you give us some
insight into the collaborative process of taking the song idea to these
musicians and creating the desired effect that you envisioned? How much, if
any, coming to a "happy medium" did this involve? Was it ever a "my way or
the highway" sort of scenario? Is there any major differences you exercise
these days as far as compositional collaboration goes?

MG: I was a complete dictator in those days. That doesn't mean I had a
clear master plan though. I would just jump into a situation with an idea,
then as the situation changed due to the usual miscalculations, I'd fight
for what I saw as the new reality, moment by moment. It was like I was a
painter and people/musicians were paint. Bones were broken, and friendships
lost, unfortunately.

HOA: Looking back at the second phase of your career with SWANS,
approximately 1985-'89, your songwriting RADICALLY changes from the recorded
body of work from your first four years with the group; what personal and
artistic catalysts led to the new approach exhibited in subsequent work like
WORLD OF SKIN and the later mid-period recordings CHILDREN OF GOD and THE
BURNING WORLD?

MG: I started to write on acoustic guitar instead of bass guitar, so the
melodic and chord structures of the songs were more immediately clear. Other
than that, nothing really changed in the working relationship.

HOA: Are you in a place where you can now begin to objectively discuss the
special collaborative process you shared musically with Jarboe? What sort
of influence did Jarboe have in your songwriting process? How would you
typically collaborate with her back in the day? What song was your greatest
collaboration, as far as you're concerned?

MG: Jarboe was a resource for me. I knew she could sing a certain way, so I
wrote songs for her to sing, and directed her how to sing them. We did not
really collaborate. She worked for me.

HOA: The third and final phase of SWANS, approximately 1991-'97, contains
what could be perceived as even more deeply personal lyrics as well as a
greater focus on sound architecture, deeply intricate layers, and the use of
tapes as well as some of the most accomplished performances in the studio
SWANS had brought to date--what catalysts led to this natural evolution in
your work and what new influences were you experiencing and relating to
within this particular time frame?

MG: I'd always thought that the music of SWANS was SOUND set to rhythm.
Once
more traditional song forms entered the picture, I still felt that way. It
was all equal to me. A slab of noise was just as valid as a simple acoustic
guitar progression. The only thing that inspired me to change was an
obligation to myself and any audience (that might be listening) to move on.

HOA: Discussion groups on the internet and the general opinion of SWANS'
fan
community is that you ended the group at the height of your
creative/collaborative powers with Jarboe--is this true as far as you were
concerned, and why was the prospect of keeping the band together simply not
an option? Have you ever looked back at this decision?

MG: As I say, my interaction with Jarboe was not really a collaboration.
SWANS was never her main thing in life, whereas for me, at the time, it was
everything. And I had no desire or need to keep the "band" together, because
there was no "band" per se. it was just a series of people I would recruit
on a project by project basis. I was happy to put the notion of "SWANS" to
rest, because it had become an onus to me, a yoke around my neck. I am
extremely happy to have left it behind.

HOA: Throughout your career with SWANS, what do you consider to be the
standout songs/albums? What makes these particular songs/albums memorable to
you today?

MG: I have to say that I don't think about it. It all makes me
uncomfortable at this point.

HOA: What were the easiest and hardest albums you've ever made and what
made
them so?

MG: They were all ridiculously hard to make, because I had such absurdly
high
standards, and I destroyed friendships and LIFE just to make them happen. It
was a stupid decision!

HOA: When you decided to record as ANGELS OF LIGHT, what did you decide
from
the beginning was going to happen that would be different from your previous
recording and performance experience with SWANS? Have you been relatively
successful at avoiding what you might perceive to be "past failures" in
ANGELS OF LIGHT?

MG: Well, I follow myself wherever I go, so I can't avoid certain
pratfalls. Still, I hope that I am moving forward.

HOA: Your interest and involvement with more roots-oriented music seems to
have moved to the forefront with ANGELS OF LIGHT; what catalysts may have
led to this change in focus in your songwriting and performance style? When
was the last time you plugged in?

MG: I always "plug in" live. My acoustic guitar has a pick up in it. I
don't care about the idea of being "acoustic" in any purist sense. I set
myself limitations because I don't want to rely on past crutches. I still
think that one or two seconds of Howling Wolf moaning is worth more than my
entire career.

HOA: The song structure in the last two ANGELS OF LIGHT recordings marks a
profound change in the style of arrangement you'd exercised in the previous
three ANGELS' recordings--i.e., simpler arrangements (at least on the
surface), more concise, lack of crescendo/climactic passages--what catalysts
led you to change the way you were working under the ANGELS' monicker? Do
you plan on collaborating again with any of the artists like ‚hristophe Hahn
who recorded on earlier ANGELS' recordings on future endeavors, or have you
entered a new phase with the ANGELS with AKRON/FAMILY?

MG: Oh I don't know, I just drift. These days the people I work with are
all good friends, and we come together, or not, when we can. People come and
go, as always. I hope that I'm able to maintain a friendship with them all
until I die.

HOA: Whose work is influencing your imagination right now?

MG: Bob Dylan is always influencing my imagination, but the task is to get
him out of my mind once and for all! Fuck that adenoidal little prick!

HOA: Looking back at your entire career, what might you consider to be
amongst the three most significant pivotal moments in your life,
artistically or otherwise?

MG: Truthfully, I see no significance there whatsoever. Having good friends
is what I value most...

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